tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5723077228948447528.post4907910599958914898..comments2024-03-27T19:07:19.133-04:00Comments on The Silver Key: Some ruminations on sword-and-sorcery’s slide into GrimdarkBrian Murphyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05563309422791320114noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5723077228948447528.post-8167120354981095162022-08-08T21:37:49.048-04:002022-08-08T21:37:49.048-04:00Great observation, @Alex Beecher. Would say that i...Great observation, @Alex Beecher. Would say that is largely true; not in all cases, but enough to be a useful heuristic. I think of a character like Ned Stark, for example. Principled heroism of any sort is a death sentence in that universe.Brian Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05563309422791320114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5723077228948447528.post-85541531836976809682022-08-07T10:12:53.532-04:002022-08-07T10:12:53.532-04:00I once read that the difference between hard boile...I once read that the difference between hard boiled and noir fiction lies primarily in character agency: in the former, the protagonist has the ability to act independently on the outside world; in the latter, it’s the world that acts on and controls/constrains what the protagonist does.<br /><br />I think a similar heuristic might be useful here. In “true” grimdark, characters can’t really define themselves via their actions, whereas sword and sorcery features protagonists who do so. Alex Beechernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5723077228948447528.post-16778981516936957532022-08-05T11:25:28.860-04:002022-08-05T11:25:28.860-04:00Andy: Could be. The way (some) Grimdark reads, it&...Andy: Could be. The way (some) Grimdark reads, it's as though no one ever heard of how medieval battles were usually decided. When they did fight, which was not frequent, it was decided through morale breaking. Not everyone slaughtered to the last man.Brian Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05563309422791320114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5723077228948447528.post-3272500721768230292022-08-04T13:26:38.107-04:002022-08-04T13:26:38.107-04:00Brian, as you said Howard definitely had dark them...Brian, as you said Howard definitely had dark themes, but there were also themes of courage in his works. Conan wasn't the type to give up. I'm more interested courage in desperate times then extreme nihilism.<br /><br />Andy, that's an interesting theory. It may be true. Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04695983348254508387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5723077228948447528.post-51267649340516800492022-08-04T12:24:06.989-04:002022-08-04T12:24:06.989-04:00I don't think I've ever read something tha...I don't think I've ever read something that would be officially classified as grimdark, but the impression I get of it reminds me of a theory I read a while back about how art is sliding in this direction because of how insulated modern (first-world) society is, so the less we see or have experience with something, the more likely artists will get hung up on imagining it and probably overcompensating a bit for their ignorance. E.g., we see more gore in our stories because a lot of people don't have any real experience with hunting or butchery thanks to our supermarkets. I've noticed many modern fantasy writers seem oddly fixated on how everything smells like excrement - have they never been on a farm before...? I don't know.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14624614486574035692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5723077228948447528.post-46147302456983836202022-08-04T08:27:13.677-04:002022-08-04T08:27:13.677-04:00Matthew: Good point on sardonic vs. cynical. Would...Matthew: Good point on sardonic vs. cynical. Would tend to agree. And even when cynical--Howard's ethos was of entropy, slide into barbarism, cyclical rise and fall of civilizations, etc--the heroes of S&S typically can make a difference, or at least live to fight another day. <br /><br />Michael touches on something similar with his comment about humor. Agreed there too. I actually do think Abercrombie does this well, as opposed to Martin and Richard Morgan (The Steel Remains), which are about as funny as Schindler's List.<br /><br />Agreed with Leiber in general. At his best, I don't think S&S has had a better prose stylist.Brian Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05563309422791320114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5723077228948447528.post-22532657833128771012022-08-04T07:40:22.781-04:002022-08-04T07:40:22.781-04:00I am in the middle of a Fafhrd and the Mouse re-re...I am in the middle of a Fafhrd and the Mouse re-read (as I am reconnecting to D&D's Appendix N canon). It has been decades since I've read these books, and I don't think I appreciated how good of a writer Leiber was, how weird these books are (in the 'weird tales' sense of the word), and how frigging funny they are. The violence in these stories is present, but not graphic, which--to me--is a big difference between classic S&S and Grimdark: Grimdark can be incredibly bloody. Like, splatterpunk bloody. I'm not sure that adds much to the work most times. TheDreadedGughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15282818564774771997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5723077228948447528.post-59884205551524834682022-08-03T09:37:59.638-04:002022-08-03T09:37:59.638-04:00I've read much more S&S than Grimdark so t...I've read much more S&S than Grimdark so take my opinion for what its worth, but while S&S is a cynical genre for the most part it was in a sardonic not relentlessly nihilistic way. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories were sardonic stories about rogues even the Conan stories were sardonic to an extent. The line about civilized men being less polite than barbarians because the former does not have to worry about having the head caved in has a certain dark humor to it. From what I gather a lot of grimdark is just relentlessly nihilistic.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04695983348254508387noreply@blogger.com